• An article by the Defence Secretary on the situation in Ukraine (1/2)

    From slider@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 01:39:54
    From: slider@anashram.com

    I have lost count of how many times recently I have to had to explain the meaning of the English term “straw man” to my European allies. That is because the best living, breathing “straw man” at the moment is the Kremlin’s claim to be under threat from NATO. In recent weeks the Russian Defence Minister’s comment that the US is “preparing a provocation with chemical components in eastern Ukraine” has made that “straw man” even bigger.

    It is obviously the Kremlin’s desire that we all engage with this bogus allegation, instead of challenging the real agenda of the President of the Russian Federation. An examination of the facts rapidly puts a match to
    the allegations against NATO.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine

    First, NATO is, to its core, defensive in nature. At the heart of the organisation is Article 5 that obliges all members to come to the aid of a fellow member if it is under attack. No ifs and no buts. Mutual
    self-defence is NATO’s cornerstone. This obligation protects us all.
    Allies from as far apart as Turkey and Norway; or as close as Latvia and
    Poland all benefit from the pact and are obliged to respond. It is a truly defensive alliance.

    Second, former Soviet states have not been expanded ‘into’ by NATO, but joined at their own request. The Kremlin attempts to present NATO as a
    Western plot to encroach upon its territory, but in reality the growth in Alliance membership is the natural response of those states to its own
    malign activities and threats.

    Third, the allegation that NATO is seeking to encircle the Russian
    Federation is without foundation. Only five of the thirty allies neighbour Russia, with just 1/16th of its borders abutted by NATO. If the definition
    of being surrounded is 6% of your perimeter being blocked then no doubt
    the brave men who fought at Arnhem or Leningrad in the Second World War
    would have something strong to say about it.

    It is not the disposition of NATO forces but the appeal of its values that actually threatens the Kremlin. Just as we know that its actions are
    really about what President Putin’s interpretation of history is and his unfinished ambitions for Ukraine.

    We know that because last summer he published, via the official Government website, his own article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. I urge you to read it, if you have time, because while it is comprehensive on his arguments it is short on accuracy and long on contradictions.

    We should all worry because what flows from the pen of President Putin
    himself is a seven-thousand-word essay that puts ethnonationalism at the
    heart of his ambitions. Not the narrative now being peddled. Not the straw
    man of NATO encroachment. It provides the skewed and selective reasoning
    to justify, at best, the subjugation of Ukraine and at worse the forced unification of that sovereign country.

    President Putin’s article completely ignores the wishes of the citizens of Ukraine, while evoking that same type of ethnonationalism which played out across Europe for centuries and still has the potential to awaken the same destructive forces of ancient hatred. Readers will not only be shocked at
    the tone of the article but they will also be surprised at how little NATO
    is mentioned. After all, is NATO ‘expansionism’ not the fountain of all
    the Kremlin’s concerns? In fact, just a single paragraph is devoted to
    NATO.

    The essay makes in it three claims. One: that the West seeks to use
    division to “rule” Russia. Two: that anything other than a single nation
    of Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia (Velikorussians,
    Malorussians, Belorussians) in the image advanced in the 17th Century is
    an artificial construct and defies the desires of a single people, with a single language and church. Third, that anyone who disagrees does so out
    of a hatred or phobia of Russia.

    We can dispense with the first allegation. No one wants to rule Russia. It
    is stating the obvious that just like any other state it is for the
    citizens of a country to determine their own future. Russia’s own lessons
    from such conflicts as Chechnya must surely be that ethnic and sectarian conflicts cost thousands of innocent lives with the protagonists getting
    bogged down in decades of strife.

    As for Ukraine, Russia itself recognised the sovereignty of it as an independent country and guaranteed its territorial integrity, not just by signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 but also its Friendship Treaty
    with Ukraine itself in 1997. Yet it is the Kremlin not the West that set
    about magnifying divisions in that country and several others in the
    Europe. It has been well documented the numerous efforts of the GRU and
    other Russian agencies to interfere in democratic elections and domestic disputes is well documented. The divide and rule cap sits prettiest on Moscow’s head not NATO’s.

    Probably the most important and strongly believed claim that Ukraine is
    Russia and Russia is Ukraine is not quite as presented. Ukraine has been separate from Russia for far longer in its history than it was ever
    united. Secondly the charge that all peoples in Belarus, Russia and
    Ukraine are descendants of the ‘Ancient Rus’ and are therefore somehow all Russians. But in reality, according to historian Professor Andrew Wilson
    in his excellent essay for RUSI entitled “Russia and Ukraine: ‘One People’
    as Putin Claims?” they are at best “kin but not the same people”. In the same way Britain around 900AD consisted of Mercia, Wessex, York,
    Strathclyde and other pre-modern kingdoms, but it was a civic nation of
    many peoples, origins and ethnicities that eventually formed the United Kingdom.

    If you start and stop your view of Russian history between 1654 and 1917
    then you can fabricate a case for a more expansive Russia, perhaps along
    the lines of the motto of the Russian Tsar before the Russian Empire “Sovereign of all of Rus: the Great, the Little, and the White” – Russia, Ukraine and Belarus respectively. And crucially you must also forget the
    before and after in history. You must ignore the existence of the Soviet
    Union, breaking of the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, and the
    occupation of Crimea. Far more than footnotes in history, I am sure you
    will agree.

    Ironically, President Putin himself admits in his essay that “things
    change: countries and communities are no exception. Of course, some part
    of a people in the process of its development, influenced by a number of reasons and historical circumstances, can become aware of itself as a

    [continued in next message]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
  • From LowRider44M@1:229/2 to slider on Monday, January 17, 2022 20:06:39
    From: intraphase@gmail.com

    On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-5, slider wrote:
    I have lost count of how many times recently I have to had to explain the meaning of the English term “straw man” to my European allies. That is because the best living, breathing “straw man” at the moment is the Kremlin’s claim to be under threat from NATO. In recent weeks the Russian Defence Minister’s comment that the US is “preparing a provocation with chemical components in eastern Ukraine” has made that “straw man” even bigger.

    It is obviously the Kremlin’s desire that we all engage with this bogus allegation, instead of challenging the real agenda of the President of the Russian Federation. An examination of the facts rapidly puts a match to
    the allegations against NATO.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine

    First, NATO is, to its core, defensive in nature. At the heart of the organisation is Article 5 that obliges all members to come to the aid of a fellow member if it is under attack. No ifs and no buts. Mutual
    self-defence is NATO’s cornerstone. This obligation protects us all. Allies from as far apart as Turkey and Norway; or as close as Latvia and Poland all benefit from the pact and are obliged to respond. It is a truly defensive alliance.

    Second, former Soviet states have not been expanded ‘into’ by NATO, but joined at their own request. The Kremlin attempts to present NATO as a Western plot to encroach upon its territory, but in reality the growth in Alliance membership is the natural response of those states to its own malign activities and threats.

    Third, the allegation that NATO is seeking to encircle the Russian Federation is without foundation. Only five of the thirty allies neighbour Russia, with just 1/16th of its borders abutted by NATO. If the definition of being surrounded is 6% of your perimeter being blocked then no doubt
    the brave men who fought at Arnhem or Leningrad in the Second World War would have something strong to say about it.

    It is not the disposition of NATO forces but the appeal of its values that actually threatens the Kremlin. Just as we know that its actions are
    really about what President Putin’s interpretation of history is and his unfinished ambitions for Ukraine.

    We know that because last summer he published, via the official Government website, his own article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. I urge you to read it, if you have time, because while it is comprehensive on his arguments it is short on accuracy and long on contradictions.

    We should all worry because what flows from the pen of President Putin himself is a seven-thousand-word essay that puts ethnonationalism at the heart of his ambitions. Not the narrative now being peddled. Not the straw man of NATO encroachment. It provides the skewed and selective reasoning
    to justify, at best, the subjugation of Ukraine and at worse the forced unification of that sovereign country.

    President Putin’s article completely ignores the wishes of the citizens of Ukraine, while evoking that same type of ethnonationalism which played out across Europe for centuries and still has the potential to awaken the same destructive forces of ancient hatred. Readers will not only be shocked at the tone of the article but they will also be surprised at how little NATO is mentioned. After all, is NATO ‘expansionism’ not the fountain of all the Kremlin’s concerns? In fact, just a single paragraph is devoted to NATO.

    The essay makes in it three claims. One: that the West seeks to use
    division to “rule” Russia. Two: that anything other than a single nation of Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia (Velikorussians, Malorussians, Belorussians) in the image advanced in the 17th Century is
    an artificial construct and defies the desires of a single people, with a single language and church. Third, that anyone who disagrees does so out
    of a hatred or phobia of Russia.

    We can dispense with the first allegation. No one wants to rule Russia. It is stating the obvious that just like any other state it is for the
    citizens of a country to determine their own future. Russia’s own lessons from such conflicts as Chechnya must surely be that ethnic and sectarian conflicts cost thousands of innocent lives with the protagonists getting bogged down in decades of strife.

    As for Ukraine, Russia itself recognised the sovereignty of it as an independent country and guaranteed its territorial integrity, not just by signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 but also its Friendship Treaty
    with Ukraine itself in 1997. Yet it is the Kremlin not the West that set about magnifying divisions in that country and several others in the
    Europe. It has been well documented the numerous efforts of the GRU and other Russian agencies to interfere in democratic elections and domestic disputes is well documented. The divide and rule cap sits prettiest on Moscow’s head not NATO’s.

    Probably the most important and strongly believed claim that Ukraine is Russia and Russia is Ukraine is not quite as presented. Ukraine has been separate from Russia for far longer in its history than it was ever
    united. Secondly the charge that all peoples in Belarus, Russia and
    Ukraine are descendants of the ‘Ancient Rus’ and are therefore somehow all
    Russians. But in reality, according to historian Professor Andrew Wilson
    in his excellent essay for RUSI entitled “Russia and Ukraine: ‘One People’
    as Putin Claims?” they are at best “kin but not the same people”. In the
    same way Britain around 900AD consisted of Mercia, Wessex, York,
    Strathclyde and other pre-modern kingdoms, but it was a civic nation of
    many peoples, origins and ethnicities that eventually formed the United Kingdom.

    If you start and stop your view of Russian history between 1654 and 1917 then you can fabricate a case for a more expansive Russia, perhaps along
    the lines of the motto of the Russian Tsar before the Russian Empire “Sovereign of all of Rus: the Great, the Little, and the White” – Russia,

    [continued in next message]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
  • From LowRider44M@1:229/2 to All on Monday, January 17, 2022 20:25:50
    From: intraphase@gmail.com

    This is a good bit, with a Neo-Con getting schooled. https://twitter.com/i/status/1481099915308769281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
  • From marika@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 13:18:32
    From: marika5000@gmail.com

    On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 10:06:40 PM UTC-6, LowRider44M wrote:
    On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-5, slider wrote:
    I have lost count of how many times recently I have to had to explain the meaning of the English term “straw man” to my European allies. That is because the best living, breathing “straw man” at the moment is the Kremlin’s claim to be under threat from NATO. In recent weeks the Russian
    Defence Minister’s comment that the US is “preparing a provocation with
    chemical components in eastern Ukraine” has made that “straw man” even
    bigger.

    It is obviously the Kremlin’s desire that we all engage with this bogus allegation, instead of challenging the real agenda of the President of the Russian Federation. An examination of the facts rapidly puts a match to the allegations against NATO.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine

    First, NATO is, to its core, defensive in nature. At the heart of the organisation is Article 5 that obliges all members to come to the aid of a fellow member if it is under attack. No ifs and no buts. Mutual self-defence is NATO’s cornerstone. This obligation protects us all. Allies from as far apart as Turkey and Norway; or as close as Latvia and Poland all benefit from the pact and are obliged to respond. It is a truly defensive alliance.

    Second, former Soviet states have not been expanded ‘into’ by NATO, but
    joined at their own request. The Kremlin attempts to present NATO as a Western plot to encroach upon its territory, but in reality the growth in Alliance membership is the natural response of those states to its own malign activities and threats.

    Third, the allegation that NATO is seeking to encircle the Russian Federation is without foundation. Only five of the thirty allies neighbour Russia, with just 1/16th of its borders abutted by NATO. If the definition of being surrounded is 6% of your perimeter being blocked then no doubt the brave men who fought at Arnhem or Leningrad in the Second World War would have something strong to say about it.

    It is not the disposition of NATO forces but the appeal of its values that actually threatens the Kremlin. Just as we know that its actions are really about what President Putin’s interpretation of history is and his unfinished ambitions for Ukraine.

    We know that because last summer he published, via the official Government website, his own article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. I urge you to read it, if you have time, because while it is
    comprehensive on his arguments it is short on accuracy and long on contradictions.

    We should all worry because what flows from the pen of President Putin himself is a seven-thousand-word essay that puts ethnonationalism at the heart of his ambitions. Not the narrative now being peddled. Not the straw man of NATO encroachment. It provides the skewed and selective reasoning to justify, at best, the subjugation of Ukraine and at worse the forced unification of that sovereign country.

    President Putin’s article completely ignores the wishes of the citizens of
    Ukraine, while evoking that same type of ethnonationalism which played out across Europe for centuries and still has the potential to awaken the same destructive forces of ancient hatred. Readers will not only be shocked at the tone of the article but they will also be surprised at how little NATO is mentioned. After all, is NATO ‘expansionism’ not the fountain of all
    the Kremlin’s concerns? In fact, just a single paragraph is devoted to NATO.

    The essay makes in it three claims. One: that the West seeks to use division to “rule” Russia. Two: that anything other than a single nation
    of Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia (Velikorussians, Malorussians, Belorussians) in the image advanced in the 17th Century is an artificial construct and defies the desires of a single people, with a single language and church. Third, that anyone who disagrees does so out of a hatred or phobia of Russia.

    We can dispense with the first allegation. No one wants to rule Russia. It is stating the obvious that just like any other state it is for the citizens of a country to determine their own future. Russia’s own lessons
    from such conflicts as Chechnya must surely be that ethnic and sectarian conflicts cost thousands of innocent lives with the protagonists getting bogged down in decades of strife.

    As for Ukraine, Russia itself recognised the sovereignty of it as an independent country and guaranteed its territorial integrity, not just by signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 but also its Friendship Treaty with Ukraine itself in 1997. Yet it is the Kremlin not the West that set about magnifying divisions in that country and several others in the Europe. It has been well documented the numerous efforts of the GRU and other Russian agencies to interfere in democratic elections and domestic disputes is well documented. The divide and rule cap sits prettiest on Moscow’s head not NATO’s.

    Probably the most important and strongly believed claim that Ukraine is Russia and Russia is Ukraine is not quite as presented. Ukraine has been separate from Russia for far longer in its history than it was ever united. Secondly the charge that all peoples in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are descendants of the ‘Ancient Rus’ and are therefore somehow all
    Russians. But in reality, according to historian Professor Andrew Wilson in his excellent essay for RUSI entitled “Russia and Ukraine: ‘One People’
    as Putin Claims?” they are at best “kin but not the same people”. In the
    same way Britain around 900AD consisted of Mercia, Wessex, York, Strathclyde and other pre-modern kingdoms, but it was a civic nation of many peoples, origins and ethnicities that eventually formed the United Kingdom.

    If you start and stop your view of Russian history between 1654 and 1917

    [continued in next message]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
  • From marika@1:229/2 to slider on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 12:46:41
    From: marika5000@gmail.com

    On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 7:40:00 PM UTC-6, slider wrote:
    I have lost count of how many times recently I have to had to explain the meaning of the English term “straw man” to my European allies. That is because the best living, breathing “straw man” at the moment is the Kremlin’s claim to be under threat from NATO. In recent weeks the Russian Defence Minister’s comment that the US is “preparing a provocation with chemical components in eastern Ukraine” has made that “straw man” even bigger.

    It is obviously the Kremlin’s desire that we all engage with this bogus allegation, instead of challenging the real agenda of the President of the Russian Federation. An examination of the facts rapidly puts a match to
    the allegations against NATO.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine

    First, NATO is, to its core, defensive in nature. At the heart of the organisation is Article 5 that obliges all members to come to the aid of a fellow member if it is under attack. No ifs and no buts. Mutual
    self-defence is NATO’s cornerstone. This obligation protects us all. Allies from as far apart as Turkey and Norway; or as close as Latvia and Poland all benefit from the pact and are obliged to respond. It is a truly defensive alliance.

    Second, former Soviet states have not been expanded ‘into’ by NATO, but joined at their own request. The Kremlin attempts to present NATO as a Western plot to encroach upon its territory, but in reality the growth in Alliance membership is the natural response of those states to its own malign activities and threats.

    Third, the allegation that NATO is seeking to encircle the Russian Federation is without foundation. Only five of the thirty allies neighbour Russia, with just 1/16th of its borders abutted by NATO. If the definition of being surrounded is 6% of your perimeter being blocked then no doubt
    the brave men who fought at Arnhem or Leningrad in the Second World War would have something strong to say about it.

    It is not the disposition of NATO forces but the appeal of its values that actually threatens the Kremlin. Just as we know that its actions are
    really about what President Putin’s interpretation of history is and his unfinished ambitions for Ukraine.

    We know that because last summer he published, via the official Government website, his own article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. I urge you to read it, if you have time, because while it is comprehensive on his arguments it is short on accuracy and long on contradictions.

    We should all worry because what flows from the pen of President Putin himself is a seven-thousand-word essay that puts ethnonationalism at the heart of his ambitions. Not the narrative now being peddled. Not the straw man of NATO encroachment. It provides the skewed and selective reasoning
    to justify, at best, the subjugation of Ukraine and at worse the forced unification of that sovereign country.

    President Putin’s article completely ignores the wishes of the citizens of Ukraine, while evoking that same type of ethnonationalism which played out across Europe for centuries and still has the potential to awaken the same destructive forces of ancient hatred. Readers will not only be shocked at the tone of the article but they will also be surprised at how little NATO is mentioned. After all, is NATO ‘expansionism’ not the fountain of all the Kremlin’s concerns? In fact, just a single paragraph is devoted to NATO.

    The essay makes in it three claims. One: that the West seeks to use
    division to “rule” Russia. Two: that anything other than a single nation of Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia (Velikorussians, Malorussians, Belorussians) in the image advanced in the 17th Century is
    an artificial construct and defies the desires of a single people, with a single language and church. Third, that anyone who disagrees does so out
    of a hatred or phobia of Russia.

    We can dispense with the first allegation. No one wants to rule Russia. It is stating the obvious that just like any other state it is for the
    citizens of a country to determine their own future. Russia’s own lessons from such conflicts as Chechnya must surely be that ethnic and sectarian conflicts cost thousands of innocent lives with the protagonists getting bogged down in decades of strife.

    As for Ukraine, Russia itself recognised the sovereignty of it as an independent country and guaranteed its territorial integrity, not just by signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 but also its Friendship Treaty
    with Ukraine itself in 1997. Yet it is the Kremlin not the West that set about magnifying divisions in that country and several others in the
    Europe. It has been well documented the numerous efforts of the GRU and other Russian agencies to interfere in democratic elections and domestic disputes is well documented. The divide and rule cap sits prettiest on Moscow’s head not NATO’s.

    Probably the most important and strongly believed claim that Ukraine is Russia and Russia is Ukraine is not quite as presented. Ukraine has been separate from Russia for far longer in its history than it was ever
    united. Secondly the charge that all peoples in Belarus, Russia and
    Ukraine are descendants of the ‘Ancient Rus’ and are therefore somehow all
    Russians. But in reality, according to historian Professor Andrew Wilson
    in his excellent essay for RUSI entitled “Russia and Ukraine: ‘One People’
    as Putin Claims?” they are at best “kin but not the same people”. In the
    same way Britain around 900AD consisted of Mercia, Wessex, York,
    Strathclyde and other pre-modern kingdoms, but it was a civic nation of
    many peoples, origins and ethnicities that eventually formed the United Kingdom.

    If you start and stop your view of Russian history between 1654 and 1917 then you can fabricate a case for a more expansive Russia, perhaps along
    the lines of the motto of the Russian Tsar before the Russian Empire “Sovereign of all of Rus: the Great, the Little, and the White” – Russia,
    Ukraine and Belarus respectively. And crucially you must also forget the

    [continued in next message]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
  • From marika@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 13:19:48
    From: marika5000@gmail.com

    On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 10:25:51 PM UTC-6, LowRider44M wrote:
    This is a good bit, with a Neo-Con getting schooled. https://twitter.com/i/status/1481099915308769281

    LOL

    mk5000

    But loving him was red
    Oh red
    Burning red
    Remembering him comes in flashbacks and echoes

    source: http://lyricsondemand.com/t/taylorswiftlyrics/redlyrics.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)