From: allreadydun@gmail.com

"Their work has also shown that, in most people, REM sleep
plays a similar role when it comes to memories: it strengthens
emotional recollections, but at the same time weakens the
emotional “tone” of the memory. “This allows you to process
emotional memories and ensure you don’t completely relive them
whenever you are reminded of them,” says van der Helm.
On the other hand, people with depression have excess REM
sleep, which may overemphasise negative emotions. As a result,
those with the condition may wrongly perceive their life to be
dominated by bad events."

AND they wonder why they are so attached or identified with
the bad event. {this paragraph should be required reading}

"This process also goes awry in post-traumatic stress disorder,
whereby intense emotions associated with memories aren’t stripped
away during sleep. “The emotional tone remains incredibly high
and that causes people to relive the traumatic experience over
and over again,” says van der Helm. Not only that, but the memory
becomes overgeneralised too, meaning many different cues can
trigger recollections of the traumatic event – a car door
slamming might bring back the sound of a gunshot, for example.
Why this happens isn’t yet known, but it may be that high
adrenaline resulting from the stressful situation disrupts
the workings of the brain. “Good sleep immediately after the
traumatic event seems to be a protective factor,” says
van der Helm."

drain the swamp of bad memory by REMing. Just dream it away,
it can be down.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

How To Boost Dreaming

New Scientist
21 March 2018
http://tinyurl.com/y8xwusba

Informational excerpts:

"Melatonin supplements, often used to combat jet lag, are sometimes
marketed as an REM promoter, but it is best to view these claims
with caution. “It may have some effect on REM sleep, but this is
not known,” says Russell Foster at the University of Oxford.

Magnesium supplements and various B vitamins have been touted
to do the same, but again there is little or no reliable evidence.
In short, there is no “dream pill” you can pop."

Some sleep scientists have directly manipulated the brainwaves
of volunteers as they slumber using a technique called
transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS). They managed to
tinker with brainwave patterns in both REM and non-REM sleep,
but the change in REM sleep didn’t improve the volunteers’
ability to consolidate memories. The upshot: we have yet to
invent a sleep machine that can fast-track what happens naturally."

"Much mythology surrounds food and dreams. Cheese before bed is
often thought to induce nightmares or vivid dreams, as is spicy
food and late-night eating in general. In fact, digestion and
metabolism of any food during sleep can cause you to wake and
remember your dream more. But even if you are racking up more
dreams, it is going to be at the detriment of your deep sleep,
which is also vital – and you will wake up feeling groggy
in the morning."

Good sleep hygiene

This is the best and most reliable way to get good sleep in
general and good REM in particular... Maintain a regular
sleep schedule, with the same bedtime and wake time,
and avoid blue light from screens before bed. Exercise is good,
but do it at least 3 hours before sleeping. This is because
exercise stimulates the release of the stress hormone cortisol,
which will keep you alert. Sex, you may be relieved to hear,
is an acceptable activity. As for the environment, keep your
bedroom dark, quiet and cool – the body naturally cools with
the onset of sleep, and if you are too warm this will be
delayed. A warm bath or shower before bed can help, however,
because the rapid cooling afterward promotes sleepiness."

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

21 March 2018
New Scientist

Why dreaming is vital: Unlocking the power of REM sleep http://tinyurl.com/y7chjnsd

Informational Excerpts:

"Recent research suggests that rapid eye movement (REM) sleep –
when we have the most powerful dreams – is vital to learning and
creativity, and promotes a healthy mind in a variety of ways."

"The idea that sleep is vital for good health is now so prevalent
you would have to be sleepwalking through life to miss it.
Not only does scrimping on sleep leave you emotionally fraught
and struggling to make decisions, it can also mess with your
immune system, has been linked to metabolic diseases like obesity
and type 2 diabetes, and is implicated in Alzheimer’s disease
and many mental health problems including depression."

"Based on what we know about sleep, the US National Sleep
Foundation recommends that adults should get between 7 and 9
hours per night. The problem is we don’t. A 2015 survey found
that only 35 per cent of people in the US were getting that
amount. In the UK, 60 per cent of people report getting less
than 7 hours a night."

"We aren’t just sleep-deprived, says Rubin Naiman at the Arizona
Center for Integrative Medicine in Tucson, we are dream-deprived."

Sleep occurs in repeating cycles each about 90 minutes long.
In each cycle, there are three stages of non-REM sleep, where
brain activity becomes gentle and rhythmic, eventually heading
into slow-wave, deep sleep. After slow-wave sleep, the brainwaves
change pattern again, the eyes start roiling under their lids
and most of the muscles in the body become paralysed to stop us
acting out our dreams. This is REM sleep, and the proportion of
time spent in this stage increases in each successive sleep
cycle throughout the night, so that by early morning, much of
those 90 minutes can be spent in REM."

"We do dream in other stages of sleep, but these dreams tend
to be unemotional, concerned with simple things and hard to
remember. In short, they are boring. REM sleep is where classic
dreams occur, those with bizarre juxtapositions, physically
impossible feats, and emotional and puzzling events."

"A good night's sleep of about 8 hours is comprised of 5 or 6
cycles. We get a higher proportion of REM sleep after about
5.5 hours."

"Some of the biggest effects seem to be around learning, memory
and creativity. For instance, last year Sylvain Williams and
his colleagues at McGill University in Montreal showed what a
lack of REM sleep does to mice. By depriving the hippocampus,
the part of the brain where memories are stored, of the
brainwaves generated during this type of sleep, the team showed
that the mice couldn’t consolidate memories about tasks they
had learned the day before. When they disrupted the hippocampus
in a similar way when the mice were awake or in non-REM sleep,
they found the animals were able to form memories as normal."

"Any interference with REM sleep will have deleterious
consequences, says György Buzsáki at the Neuroscience
Institute at New York University. “There is a good reason
why nature invented sleep with REM as its critical ingredient,”
he says."

"Another benefit of REM sleep and the dreams that go with it
seems to be a creativity boost. Sara Mednick at the University
of California, Irvine, measured people’s creativity after
allowing them to either rest quietly, to have a nap of non-REM
sleep or to have a nap. The volunteers were then asked to find
a word that links three others. For example, “cookies”, “heart”
and “sixteen” are linked by the word “sweet”. Those who had had
REM sleep during their nap showed improved creative ability,
compared with those who had none."

"That makes sense when you consider that REM sleep seems to
specifically put the brain into a state where it is unable to
find the associations between things you might expect.
This results in those most bizarre of dreams where you meet
people at the bottom of the ocean and think nothing of
breathing water, or talk with long-dead relatives."

"In fact, several researchers think this madcap associative quality
is key to the role of REM."

"This opens the door to assigning a function to dreams themselves.
For years it has been considered taboo to speculate on their
purpose. Many scientists will admit only that they are a
diverting consequence of REM sleep."

"Robert Stickgold at Harvard Medical School, whose work has shown
that the majority of dreams have emotional cores, thinks there is
more to it than that. “One of the reasons we dream is so we have
emotional reactions,” he says. “They are part of the mechanism
the brain has to choose amongst potential interpretations.”
So you might dream about a hard decision, and the brain monitors
your emotional response to it. The next day, your ability to make
the decision is easier: you have “slept on it”. This phrase or
similar exists in most languages, by the way.

Naiman goes even further. You may have heard the digestive
system being described as a “second brain”, in reference to
the fact there are large numbers of neurons connecting the gut
and the brain; you literally get “gut feelings”. Analogously,
Naiman calls the dreaming brain a second gut. “It processes
undigested material from the day,” he says. “If you sleep well
and dream, you heal more quickly from emotional hardship.”

"There is tentative evidence to back up the idea. Rosalind
Cartwright at Rush University in Chicago has reported that the
dreams of women who have depression after a difficult divorce
may aid their recovery. Women who reported a greater number
of negative dreams about their ex-spouses soon after the
divorce were more likely to be in remission a year later than
women who didn’t report any. Perhaps they were “digesting”
their negative feelings."

"Naiman calls this digestive theory of dreaming endogenous,
or internal, psychotherapy. It follows the ideas of Els van der
Helm and Matthew Walker at the University of California,
Berkeley, who have proposed that REM sleep is “overnight
therapy” that strips out the emotion from traumatic or
potentially anxiety-inducing memories.

Van der Helm and her colleagues discovered that sleep dampens
our emotional response to provocative images. They tested
people in a brain scanner at the end of the day or after a
night’s sleep in the lab, and found that the brain’s emotional
centre is less active after sleep. The effect was stronger
after REM sleep, especially when dreams were unpleasant."

"Their work has also shown that, in most people, REM sleep
plays a similar role when it comes to memories: it strengthens
emotional recollections, but at the same time weakens the
emotional “tone” of the memory. “This allows you to process
emotional memories and ensure you don’t completely relive them
whenever you are reminded of them,” says van der Helm.
On the other hand, people with depression have excess REM
sleep, which may overemphasise negative emotions. As a result,
those with the condition may wrongly perceive their life to be
dominated by bad events."

"This process also goes awry in post-traumatic stress disorder,
whereby intense emotions associated with memories aren’t stripped
away during sleep. “The emotional tone remains incredibly high
and that causes people to relive the traumatic experience over
and over again,” says van der Helm. Not only that, but the memory
becomes overgeneralised too, meaning many different cues can
trigger recollections of the traumatic event – a car door
slamming might bring back the sound of a gunshot, for example.
Why this happens isn’t yet known, but it may be that high
adrenaline resulting from the stressful situation disrupts
the workings of the brain. “Good sleep immediately after the
traumatic event seems to be a protective factor,” says
van der Helm."

"Given the potential benefits of dream sleep, it is worrying
that there is a long list of behaviours that seem to diminish it."

***

Alcohol

Aside from early rising – a 2011 YouGov survey in the US found
that 60 per cent of people rely on an alarm to wake up –
drinking alcohol is perhaps the most common. If you go to bed
drunk, or even slightly tipsy, your sleep profile will skew
to deep sleep. Even a single drink will delay the first period
of REM.

Many people deliberately use alcohol to get them off to sleep,
but may be unaware of its effect on their sleep quality.
“Alcohol is a specific REM suppressant,” says Stickgold.
If you drink a lot before bed, you wake throughout the night
as the body processes the alcohol. “So there’s a lot of
disruption and you wake up, even though you feel like
you’re dead,” he says."

***

Marijuana

"Marijuana also promotes deep sleep and suppresses REM:
go to bed stoned and you won’t dream. Heavy users of cannabis
report a startling dream “rebound” when they stop taking the drug.
In this, REM sleep comes back with a vengeance, and with it all
the dreams they have been missing – further evidence that it
probably serves an important purpose."

***

Other Compounds and Situations

"Zolpidem (sold as Ambien) is a sedative that happens to reduce REM."

"Antidepressants do the same, promoting deep sleep to the
detriment of REM."

"Many sleep disorders, including sleep apnoea, where people stop
breathing during the night, and insomnia, disrupt the cycle of
sleep phases and reduce REM too."

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

Good sleep hygiene

This is the best and most reliable way to get good sleep in
general and good REM in particular... Maintain a regular
sleep schedule, with the same bedtime and wake time,
and avoid blue light from screens before bed. Exercise is good,
but do it at least 3 hours before sleeping. This is because
exercise stimulates the release of the stress hormone cortisol,
which will keep you alert.

Another proven way to reduce cortisol is by going barefoot,
by that i mean you ground yourself to the Earth. You must
actually touch the earth with feet, hands, ass, whatever.
And Slider you can put your wanger in a hole in the ground,
that'll work too. ha ha !

Sex, you may be relieved to hear,

is an acceptable activity. As for the environment, keep your
bedroom dark, quiet and cool – the body naturally cools with
the onset of sleep, and if you are too warm this will be
delayed. A warm bath or shower before bed can help, however,
because the rapid cooling afterward promotes sleepiness."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

22 March 2018
New Scientist

Dreams decoded: 6 answers to the mysteries of the sleeping mind http://tinyurl.com/y9p3fyyy

Informational excerpts:

"1. Why are dreams so weird

There’s a good reason why dreams are so skittish and peculiar.
Memories of life events – so-called episodic memories – are stored
in a part of the brain called the hippocampus, and in rapid eye
movement (REM) sleep signals coming out of the hippocampus are
shut off. That means we can’t access specific memories of things
that happened in the past while we dream."

"But we can still access general memories about people and places,
which form the backbone of our dreams. At the same time, activity
in brain regions involved in emotional processes are cranked up,
forming an overly emotional narrative that stitches these
memories together."

"Another part of the brain, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex,
which controls our powers of both logical reasoning and decision
making, is also shut down."

[Jeremy: When you go lucid you CAN access specific memories. This
implies the hippocampus signals turn back on in lucid dreaming.
Also, I do not tend toward emotionality in LD, I am more rational.
And I have previously posted research showing that several areas
of the cortex, in fact, become active upon going lucid in dreaming,
including the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex specifically.]

Refererence to previous adc post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.dreams.castaneda/pD9Lw49Kt1A/rDm-Xm15cHgJ

***

"2. Do we only dream in REM sleep?

Recent experiments have shown that we dream throughout our sleep,
and not just in REM sleep, but we forget most of them. Dreams that
occur in deep sleep tend to be unemotional, non-vivid, concerned
with simple things, and hard to remember. In short, they are boring.
REM sleep is where the classic dreams occur, those with bizarre
juxtapositions, physically impossible feats, disturbing, moving
and puzzling experiences. If we cut short REM sleep, we lose
these experiences.

Incidentally, many people have wondered if in REM sleep our eyes
are moving to “look” at dream images. Some evidence suggests that
this is indeed the case."

[Jeremy: I've noted before my own theory that if you go lucid in
REM, you are then lucid in a hybrid of waking consciousness and REM,
i.e. the dreaming scenes can be weirder, and more weird stuff might
start happening too; whereas if you go lucid in other non-REM stages,
the dream imagery will be much more stable and/or normal. Indeed,
the dream scenes may even be like a copy of your ordinary world.
At least, that's what my experiences suggest. I maintain that just
as dreaming itself can occur in any sleep stage, so too can LD,
and that LD is slightly different in each stage. My theory is that
full lucidity is possible in any sleep stage, except perhaps in the
very deepest sleep stage (unless you're a monk or something.)]

***

"3. Why are dreams hard to remember?

"Everybody dreams but we don’t all remember them. This could be down
to brain activity – those of us who tend to remember dreams have
greater activity while asleep and awake in two parts of the brain
involved in promoting images and storing memories than people
who don’t remember their dreams.

"It also has to do with how you sleep. During REM sleep we struggle
to form new memories, says Robert Stickgold, at the division of
sleep medicine at Harvard Medical School. If we wake up during or
just after a dream, however, we are able to grasp hold of it
before it slips away – in other words, we can encode it into
longer-term storage."

***

4. What are dreams for?

"There are many ideas. One is that dreams may have an evolutionary
function, to test us in scenarios that are important to our
survival. This might explain why people often report being
chased or attacked in their dreams. Alternatively, they may act
to soothe the harsh impact of emotional trauma. On the other hand,
many people have attested to the power of dreams for spurring
creative thought, like Paul McCartney dreaming the melody to
Yesterday (on waking, he improvised lyrics so as not to forget
the tune), and Dmitri Mendeleev dreaming up the structure of the
periodic table of elements. There is experimental support for
the idea, with studies showing that people score better on tests
of creativity after naps consisting of REM sleep."

***

5. Do my dreams mean anything?

"What you dream about and the emotional tone of the dream probably
reflects what your brain considers important. Research shows that
if you play Tetris all day long, your brain will decide that
Tetris is what you need to dream about. If you are anxious about
something, your brain may well give you a dream with anxiety as
the dominant emotion. A huge amount of research logging waking
experiences and dream content suggests that your experiences in
the day can be mapped to the content of your dream – but a lot,
perhaps a majority, of apparently unrelated flotsam also creeps
into dreams.

Attempting to analyse and interpret your dreams could be
therapeutic or insightful, says Mark Blagrove, of Swansea
University, UK, but he cautions that some might say that such
insight might be no more than you’d get from considering
one’s horoscope or daydreams. Experiments would be needed to
test whether dreams in particular convey important personal
information. And even then it doesn’t mean dreams are designed
to convey that information. If evolution has given us dreams
as messages about ourselves, it could have done a better job
at making them easier to remember."

[Jeremy: in my experience, on the rare occasions when a dream
does have some important 'meaning' for me, indeed it will be
related to something I consider 'important' or am 'anxious' about,
and I can add that such dreams are always extremely easy to
remember - in fact, I always wake up right after they occur.]

***

6. Do men and women dream differently?

"Some analyses of dream content suggest that women dream equally
about men and women, while men are more likely to dream about
other men. Michael Schredl, of the Central Institute of Mental
Health, in Mannheim, Germany, has documented dream reports
showing that men often dream about fighting other men, while women
will dream more often of friendly interactions with people.
A couple of years ago, Christina Wong and colleagues at the
University of Ottawa, Canada, wrote a computer program to try
to differentiate between the dreams of men and women. The program
was able to correctly predict the gender of the dreamer about
75 percent of the time. It seems there are gender differences
in dreaming – but for now it’s too soon to say why."

[Jeremy: so men are more often concerned with fighting and women
more often with socializing? Seems to make sense. But let's not
forget that 25% of the time, the program was wrong. :) ]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

New Scientist
10 April 2017

We dream loads more than we thought – and forget most of it http://tinyurl.com/mfvsptp

Informational excerpts:

You dream more than you know. A new way to detect dreaming has
confirmed that it doesn’t only occur during rapid eye movement
(REM) sleep, and has shown why we often don’t remember our dreams.

“There is much more dreaming going on than we remember,” says Tore
Nielsen at the University of Montreal, Canada. “It’s hours and
hours of mental experiences and we remember a few minutes.”

During sleep, low-frequency brainwaves are detectable across the
brain. Now Francesca Siclari at the University of Wisconsin -
Madison and her colleagues have discovered that a decrease in
these waves in an area at the back of the brain is a sign that
someone is dreaming.

“This zone was a little bit more awake, showing high-frequency
brainwaves more common during wakefulness,” says Siclari.
This one region seems to be all that’s necessary for dreaming,
she says.

Siclari’s team found this dream signature by using EEG caps to map
the brain activity of 32 people while they slept. The team woke
the sleepers when they showed various patterns of brainwave
activity, and asked them if they had been dreaming.

The team found such a strong correlation between dreaming and fewer low-frequency waves in the “hot zone” that they could successfully
predict whether a person was dreaming 91 percent of the time.

Forgotten dreams

The researchers then used this sign of dreaming to investigate how
our brains behave as we dream. We normally associate dreams with
REM sleep, and the team saw that dreams during this phase were
linked to a rise in high-frequency brainwaves in areas that are
active in waking hours. This activity matched the brain areas
that would have been active if the dreamers had been living out
their dreams in real life.

The dream signature also revealed how much we dream during
non-REM sleep. Monitoring seven people over five to 10 nights
of sleep, Siclari found the volunteers dreamed during 71 percent
of their non-REM sleep, in addition to 95 percent of their
REM sleep.

Despite all this dreaming, many dreams are forgotten. Sometimes
participants had a foggy idea they had been dreaming, but
couldn’t remember what about. In a further experiment with
10 people, the team found that being able to later remember
a dream was linked to higher activity in the prefrontal cortex –
which is associated with memory – while dreaming. “The region
for remembering the dream was different from the region for
having a dream,” Siclari says.

***

Reference in Nature:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.4545

"In both NREM and REM sleep, reports of dream experience were
associated with local decreases in low-frequency activity in
posterior cortical regions. High-frequency activity in these
regions correlated with specific dream contents. Monitoring this
posterior 'hot zone' in real time predicted whether an individual
reported dreaming or the absence of dream experiences during
NREM sleep, suggesting that it may constitute a core correlate
of conscious experiences in sleep."

***

Jeremy comments:

It is highly interesting that monitoring the posterior cortical
brain regions allows them to tell with 91% accuracy if someone
is dreaming, whatever the sleep stage.

I think they need to be a bit more careful using that word
'conscious'. There are degrees of being 'conscious' - such as in
the differences between remembering an ordinary dream and being
fully lucid inside a dream.

And yet I do think both of those activities reflect degrees of
consciousness. They also reflect degrees of... self-reflection. :)

I'm tempted to speculate that both people who remember their dreams
more often AND lucid dreamers are simply people more concerned with self-reflection and self-awareness.

It doesn't make such people 'better', it could just mean they
tend to monitor themselves more thoroughly.

Also, just because those brain regions are always active when we
dream, that does NOT necessarily make them "all that's necessary
for dreaming", as they said. That's an overly general conclusion,
in my opinion.

***

For some people, it might also be worthwhile to point out that
results like these help reinforce the somewhat obvious (to me) point
that dreaming is a thing our brain does. It's not about going to
some other world or realm or 'astral plane' or alternate universe.
It's always... a thing the brain does. :)

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:55:53 PM UTC-7, ClutchCargo wrote:

"Their work has also shown that, in most people, REM sleep
plays a similar role when it comes to memories: it strengthens
emotional recollections, but at the same time weakens the
emotional “tone” of the memory. “This allows you to process
emotional memories and ensure you don’t completely relive them
whenever you are reminded of them,” says van der Helm.
On the other hand, people with depression have excess REM
sleep, which may overemphasise negative emotions. As a result,
those with the condition may wrongly perceive their life to be
dominated by bad events."

AND they wonder why they are so attached or identified with
the bad event. {this paragraph should be required reading}

"This process also goes awry in post-traumatic stress disorder,
whereby intense emotions associated with memories aren’t stripped
away during sleep. “The emotional tone remains incredibly high
and that causes people to relive the traumatic experience over
and over again,” says van der Helm. Not only that, but the memory
becomes overgeneralised too, meaning many different cues can
trigger recollections of the traumatic event – a car door
slamming might bring back the sound of a gunshot, for example.
Why this happens isn’t yet known, but it may be that high
adrenaline resulting from the stressful situation disrupts
the workings of the brain. “Good sleep immediately after the
traumatic event seems to be a protective factor,” says
van der Helm."

drain the swamp of bad memory by REMing. Just dream it away,
it can be down.

Yep. And here's a bit more on the nightmare thing - along the lines
of how getting too much REM might be as bad as not getting enough.

***

New Scientist
28 July 2017

Keep having nightmares? You may be getting too much sleep http://tinyurl.com/ycugfm9n

Informational excerpts:

"People often have nightmares following upsetting events, and
research into nightmares has mostly focused on people with
conditions like post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
But most people get nightmares at some point, prompting Stephanie
Rek at the University of Oxford and her colleagues to perform
one of the largest ever studies of nightmares in the general
population.

The team recruited 846 people through media advertisements
and databases of people interested in sleep studies, and asked
them to complete an online survey. The participants were asked
questions such as how many nightmares they had experienced over
the past two weeks, and how bad they were. These answers
contributed to an overall score on a “nightmare severity scale”.

Each volunteer was also assessed for PTSD and asked about other
aspects of their life, such as recent divorces or legal trouble,
their tendency to worry, how much sleep they get and how much
alcohol they drink.

Worrying and snoozing

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the team found that worrying about the
future, or about doing things wrong, was most strongly associated
with the frequency and severity of nightmares. The team suggest
that worrying before bedtime feeds negative dream content,
increasing the chance of nightmares – in line with the idea that
dreams reflect waking life experiences, capturing the daytime
concerns of the dreamer.

But the team also found a link between the occurrence of
nightmares and sleeping more than 9 hours a night.
Rek says that sleeping for longer might increase the
amount of late-night rapid eye movement (REM) sleep – the time
when nightmares most commonly occur.

Alternatively, worries may not cause nightmares. Instead, it may be
that people who have nightmares for some other reason tend to
have disrupted sleep, which exacerbates their worries the following
day and makes them sleep longer the rest of the week.

Whatever the underlying relationship between worrying, nightmares
and too much sleep, it may be possible to intervene. “For example,
worry can be effectively treated using cognitive behavioural
approaches,” says Rek. “It would be interesting to do more research
to see whether these alleviate nightmares.”

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

A New Method For Having Lucid Dreams Has Been Discovered by Scientists
Would you try it?

PETER DOCKRILL
21 AUG 2018
Science Alert

http://tinyurl.com/yamteofp

Excerpts:

Sadly, only about half of us ever experience lucid dreams in our lives, and efforts to trigger the phenomenon have delivered mixed results. But now, new research looks to offer the most effective way of inducing lucid dreaming yet.

Building on their own previous research, researchers at the University of Wisconsin–Madison and the Lucidity Institute in Hawaii wanted to investigate how chemicals called acetylcholinesterase inhibitors (AChEls) might promote lucid dreaming.

The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is thought to help modulate REM sleep, and AChEls help this compound to aggregate in the brain, by inhibiting an enzyme (called acetylcholinesterase) that inactivates acetylcholine.

As it happens, a common drug used to treat memory decline in Alzheimer's disease – known as galantamine – is a fast-acting AChEI with only mild side
effects, so researchers recruited 121 participants to see what effect the drug had on their ability
to have and recall lucid dreams.

It's worth pointing out these volunteers weren't just everyday people, but enthusiasts with an established interest in lucid dreams, who also had undertaken training with lucid dream induction protocols (including what is known as the MILD technique).

When this cognitive training was combined with galantamine, lucid stuff started
to happen.

Over three consecutive nights, participants took increasing doses of the drug, starting with a placebo, then 4 mg, then 8 mg on the final night.

Each night, participants woke 4.5 hours after lights out, practised their dream
induction techniques, ingested their capsule, and returned to sleep.

The combination of the induction technique paired with the Alzheimer's medication looks to indeed help trigger lucid dreams, and the higher dosage delivered a stronger result.

While taking the 'active' placebo (0 mg of galantamine but still using the MILD
technique), 14 percent of participants reported a lucid dream, but this increased to 27 percent when 4 mg was consumed, and rose to 42 percent with an 8 mg dose.

"This combined protocol resulted in a total of 69 out of 121 participants (57 percent) successfully having a lucid dream on at least one out of two nights on
an active dose of galantamine," the researchers write in their paper.

"This protocol is one of the most effective methods for inducing lucid dreams known to-date, and holds promise for making lucid dreaming available to a wider
population."

"This new method finally has the success rate we need to be able to properly do
research on lucid dreaming," psychologist Denholm Aspy from the University of Adelaide in Australia, who wasn't involved in the study, explained to New Scientist.

The findings are reported in PLOS One.

***

Here is the link to the PLOS One findings:
http://tinyurl.com/y7pw47hf

"The integrated method of taking galantamine in the last third of
the night with at least 30 minutes of sleep interruption and with an appropriately focused mental set is one of the most effective methods
for inducing lucid dreams available today."

Now here's what I think. Since this is fairly strong evidence that
something related to galantamine has a significant influence on LD,
why couldn't it be used in combination with any methods you prefer?
For example, if I do WBTB - go to bed at 11 PM, and sleep until 4 am,
get up to take a pee and take some galantamine, why couldn't I stay
up for 30 minutes, then go back to bed, set my intention to do LD,
and then attempt WILD for the next 30 minutes? If I fail at WILD
and go back to sleep, I can still attempt DILD.

I actually have some galantamine, and I've had it sitting by my bed
for several months, and yet I have never taken it. (An example of
how little I've really cared lately whether I do LD or not.)
Once a few years back, I had tried galantamine like... once.
I may go ahead and experiment with it more after seeing this result.

A percentage of 57% success over just 3 nights is extremely high! :)
And that's for a combo of MILD and galantamine (8 mg most effective).
I don't see why one couldn't throw WILD into the mix.

LaBerge was lead researcher on this.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

yeah i reported on this about 10 years ago here.

galantamine will bring you results.

the shit works. anyone that could use a helping

hand this stuff would be the item. don't take more

than you need though-- 8 mgs is just right.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 8:52:31 AM UTC-7, chorro wrote:

yeah i reported on this about 10 years ago here.

galantamine will bring you results.

the shit works. anyone that could use a helping

hand this stuff would be the item. don't take more

than you need though-- 8 mgs is just right.

Well, that's fine I guess, but an individual's word means little.
Apparently, you even stopped using galantamine, or at least
I hadn't heard you say anything about it in quite a long time.
This was real research that formally demonstrated the effectiveness
of galantamine and that 8 mg works better than 4 mg. It also gave a
result associated specifically with the MILD method, but as I pointed
out, one could also throw WILD into the mix if so inclined.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

I tried 8 mg. of galantamine in the middle of the night last night
and did WBTB. Then attempted WILD for awhile. Hypnagogia was not
noticeably different. I didn't find it any easier to 'transition'
into dreaming, either - and went back to sleep. That's when shit
got weird. I'm not sure I like what the stuff seemed to do...

I went lucid in a dream scene where I was involved in an enterprise
where I was helping use strange manually-operated robotics to load
something like a large space-craft or ocean-going submersible craft
with all kinds of supplies, as if preparing for a long journey,
either in space or under the sea. The robotics were sort of like
giant artificial hands on mobile platforms, and me and a couple of
other guys were running around controlling the machines loading all
sorts of stuff into our craft, getting it all situated, doing the
associated paperwork, stopping once in a while to discuss strategy
and our next steps, etc. I went lucid in that scene but then I woke
up very soon after doing so.

When I went back to sleep again, I went right back into the SAME
dream again, and after working with these robotic devices again
for awhile I went lucid AGAIN, but then the same thing happened:
after only 30 seconds or so of walking around lucidly examining
this 'work area' I woke up AGAIN. :)

By this time, with all the waking up I'd started feeling kind
of sluggish and tired. When I went back to sleep for the 3rd
time, I found myself once again dreaming in the same situation!
But this time, it was like my mind had become so used to this
place, I simply STAYED in that ordinary dream, not going lucid
again. It had somehow started feeling like it was a REAL place
to my mind - like I really had a job there. :)

And I swear it felt like I worked in that place like... the rest
of the night. It felt like I dreamed about working with all these
weird machines for hours like it was friggin' real. I woke up
feeling as if I'd dreamed of NOTHING ELSE all night long!
Almost like the galantamine had somehow riveted me into this
single dream scene, like permanently.

I woke up in the morning with my head feeling a weird too.
Like I'd been working some job all night instead of sleeping.
So I don't know about the galantamine. :O

(It was almost like a metaphor - where the galantamine could
be the "robotics" I was using to take a "dreaming journey".)

Not sure I like it.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

Jeremy wrote something!

I tried 8 mg. of galantamine in the middle of the night last night
and did WBTB. Then attempted WILD for awhile. Hypnagogia was not
noticeably different. I didn't find it any easier to 'transition'
into dreaming, either - and went back to sleep. That's when shit
got weird. I'm not sure I like what the stuff seemed to do...

### - it only becomes that once you've quite deliberately WILDed a few
times, once you know from 'experience' what to do, that's when it all
becomes a noticeably more willful thing... the below sounding a bit like a WILD, partially anyway + shame you took that shit because now you can't
know what did what for sure, so was a wasted experience really in that
sense... next time don't bother with 'any' props as then there'll be nada
but yourself involved and to contend with, it be all your own doing
alone...

I went lucid in a dream scene where I was involved in an enterprise
where I was helping use strange manually-operated robotics to load
something like a large space-craft or ocean-going submersible craft
with all kinds of supplies, as if preparing for a long journey,
either in space or under the sea. The robotics were sort of like
giant artificial hands on mobile platforms, and me and a couple of
other guys were running around controlling the machines loading all
sorts of stuff into our craft, getting it all situated, doing the
associated paperwork, stopping once in a while to discuss strategy
and our next steps, etc. I went lucid in that scene but then I woke
up very soon after doing so.

When I went back to sleep again, I went right back into the SAME
dream again, and after working with these robotic devices again
for awhile I went lucid AGAIN, but then the same thing happened:
after only 30 seconds or so of walking around lucidly examining
this 'work area' I woke up AGAIN. :)

By this time, with all the waking up I'd started feeling kind
of sluggish and tired. When I went back to sleep for the 3rd
time, I found myself once again dreaming in the same situation!
But this time, it was like my mind had become so used to this
place, I simply STAYED in that ordinary dream, not going lucid
again. It had somehow started feeling like it was a REAL place
to my mind - like I really had a job there. :)

And I swear it felt like I worked in that place like... the rest
of the night. It felt like I dreamed about working with all these
weird machines for hours like it was friggin' real. I woke up
feeling as if I'd dreamed of NOTHING ELSE all night long!
Almost like the galantamine had somehow riveted me into this
single dream scene, like permanently.

I woke up in the morning with my head feeling a weird too.
Like I'd been working some job all night instead of sleeping.
So I don't know about the galantamine. :O

(It was almost like a metaphor - where the galantamine could
be the "robotics" I was using to take a "dreaming journey".)

Not sure I like it.

### - for my 2nd or 3rd WILD i found myself in a mechanics workshop (like
kinda where things get repaired/fixed? kinda symbolism perhaps) so maybe,
as a newbie heh, you were working there (on yourself) all that time
shuffling things about and around, and the next time you'll not have to do
so much work in that direction (am only guessing here...) and then maybe
have a better WILD, but defo leave all that other 'stuff' (galantamine)
out of it so you can keep a clearer head? i dunno why you even took it?
depend on yourself only!

'full' lucidity and thus stability is what you're after initially, later
you can push things farther when you can perhaps more readily handle all
that, which will happen all by itself anyway so just tag along for the
ride - imho i think by/from routine you first went into a dild (because
that's what you're used-to/expect) and only from there into a WILD and
thus it was all a bit too fancy, although maybe as many as your first 3 or
4 WILDs will be kinda strange like that, convoluted entries i mean (like
me going down in some elevator as apparently the means to greater lucidity
heh) at this stage it's potentially telling/reflecting lots of things
about yourself that you'll soon stop noticing as entering into the dream
state becomes increasingly something that happens almost
instantaneously... it's just a little learning curve is all

you did alright for a first attempt tho', just leave that other shit out
of it and am sure it'll be better next time, and the time after that as
well, it's bound to be a little confused at first but it clears up quickly enough (if it had been me, for example, suddenly finding myself
working/loading etc (shock/horror lol wtf!) i'd have quickly turned around
and split that scene and gone off someplace else where i can think more
clearly kinda thing? hahaha...)

stabilise yourself at level one first, you'll know when to move on from
there, you'll know it because you'll feel it, remain sober while dealing
with everything that happens in the meantime, 'some' peeps apparently have
to make more effort in that direction than others is all hehehe ;)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 11:42:01 AM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Jeremy wrote something!

I tried 8 mg. of galantamine in the middle of the night last night
and did WBTB. Then attempted WILD for awhile. Hypnagogia was not
noticeably different. I didn't find it any easier to 'transition'
into dreaming, either - and went back to sleep. That's when shit
got weird. I'm not sure I like what the stuff seemed to do...

### - it only becomes that once you've quite deliberately WILDed a few
times, once you know from 'experience' what to do, that's when it all
becomes a noticeably more willful thing... the below sounding a bit like a WILD, partially anyway + shame you took that shit because now you can't
know what did what for sure, so was a wasted experience really in that sense... next time don't bother with 'any' props as then there'll be nada
but yourself involved and to contend with, it be all your own doing
alone...

I went lucid in a dream scene where I was involved in an enterprise
where I was helping use strange manually-operated robotics to load something like a large space-craft or ocean-going submersible craft
with all kinds of supplies, as if preparing for a long journey,
either in space or under the sea. The robotics were sort of like
giant artificial hands on mobile platforms, and me and a couple of
other guys were running around controlling the machines loading all
sorts of stuff into our craft, getting it all situated, doing the associated paperwork, stopping once in a while to discuss strategy
and our next steps, etc. I went lucid in that scene but then I woke
up very soon after doing so.

When I went back to sleep again, I went right back into the SAME
dream again, and after working with these robotic devices again
for awhile I went lucid AGAIN, but then the same thing happened:
after only 30 seconds or so of walking around lucidly examining
this 'work area' I woke up AGAIN. :)

By this time, with all the waking up I'd started feeling kind
of sluggish and tired. When I went back to sleep for the 3rd
time, I found myself once again dreaming in the same situation!
But this time, it was like my mind had become so used to this
place, I simply STAYED in that ordinary dream, not going lucid
again. It had somehow started feeling like it was a REAL place
to my mind - like I really had a job there. :)

And I swear it felt like I worked in that place like... the rest
of the night. It felt like I dreamed about working with all these
weird machines for hours like it was friggin' real. I woke up
feeling as if I'd dreamed of NOTHING ELSE all night long!
Almost like the galantamine had somehow riveted me into this
single dream scene, like permanently.

I woke up in the morning with my head feeling a weird too.
Like I'd been working some job all night instead of sleeping.
So I don't know about the galantamine. :O

(It was almost like a metaphor - where the galantamine could
be the "robotics" I was using to take a "dreaming journey".)

Not sure I like it.

### - for my 2nd or 3rd WILD i found myself in a mechanics workshop (like kinda where things get repaired/fixed? kinda symbolism perhaps) so maybe,
as a newbie heh, you were working there (on yourself) all that time
shuffling things about and around, and the next time you'll not have to do
so much work in that direction (am only guessing here...) and then maybe
have a better WILD, but defo leave all that other 'stuff' (galantamine)
out of it so you can keep a clearer head? i dunno why you even took it? depend on yourself only!

'full' lucidity and thus stability is what you're after initially, later
you can push things farther when you can perhaps more readily handle all that, which will happen all by itself anyway so just tag along for the
ride - imho i think by/from routine you first went into a dild (because that's what you're used-to/expect) and only from there into a WILD and
thus it was all a bit too fancy, although maybe as many as your first 3 or
4 WILDs will be kinda strange like that, convoluted entries i mean (like
me going down in some elevator as apparently the means to greater lucidity heh) at this stage it's potentially telling/reflecting lots of things
about yourself that you'll soon stop noticing as entering into the dream state becomes increasingly something that happens almost
instantaneously... it's just a little learning curve is all

you did alright for a first attempt tho', just leave that other shit out
of it and am sure it'll be better next time, and the time after that as
well, it's bound to be a little confused at first but it clears up quickly enough (if it had been me, for example, suddenly finding myself working/loading etc (shock/horror lol wtf!) i'd have quickly turned around and split that scene and gone off someplace else where i can think more clearly kinda thing? hahaha...)

stabilise yourself at level one first, you'll know when to move on from there, you'll know it because you'll feel it, remain sober while dealing
with everything that happens in the meantime, 'some' peeps apparently have
to make more effort in that direction than others is all hehehe ;)

What a crock of shit. :) You have no idea what you're talking about.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

What a crock of shit. You have no idea what you're talking about.

### - you're welcome lol

(just givin' ya a bit of shit is all heh...)

:)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 11:51:26 AM UTC-7, slider wrote:

What a crock of shit. You have no idea what you're talking about.

### - you're welcome lol

(just givin' ya a bit of shit is all heh...)

:)

Well okay, but this isn't intended as "shit", it's a serious question.

I've now shown you TWO scientific studies where the MILD method
of lucid dreaming was proven to be effective for over 40% of a
sample population. There are no studies I'm aware of that have
ever shown WILD is anywhere even close to being that easy.
I mean, yeah, a few people here and there get good at it,
but, in general, the evidence suggests other methods work better.
So the serious question is: why did you write in your book,
and why do you keep claiming WILD is a more reliable and easy method?

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 20:31:29 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

I've now shown you TWO scientific studies where the MILD method
of lucid dreaming was proven to be effective for over 40% of a
sample population. There are no studies I'm aware of that have
ever shown WILD is anywhere even close to being that easy.
I mean, yeah, a few people here and there get good at it,
but, in general, the evidence suggests other methods work better.
So the serious question is: why did you write in your book,
and why do you keep claiming WILD is a more reliable and easy method?

### - no 'clear' way has been produced for WILDS until now, what with
warnings about sp and all the rest of it, so all those studies will now
have to be repeated with the easier method that's offered, plus am pretty
sure the results will be very different this time :)

plus have already answered/debated this a dozens time by now? duh...

have made this point clear - even in my book:

The singular lack of information on this need, not only to sleep, but also
to dream, means that we must disregard everything we think we know about
the subject and start over with a complete re-examination of the entire process. This might just result in a better understanding of how it all
works rather than meekly acquiescing to a process we otherwise take
absolutely no conscious part in beyond just letting it happen. From
nature’s perspective, what, if anything, has dreaming got to do with
everyday waking life that makes it compulsory?

The same can be said for lucid dreaming and everything we think we might already know about that subject and the many conclusions people have come
to concerning it. In which case we should probably set accepted
understanding aside and start from zero, collecting and collating
evidence, the better to assess and understand what’s really occurring
during sleep, and why. Next, with a greater understanding of that process,
we might even be able to take an active hand in it rather than just
leaving it all to function on some unconscious default autopilot, as is
mostly the case with the lucid dreams engendered by DILDs.

Setting aside the many different cultural and religious connotations that
have been added to dreams and lucid dreaming over long periods of time,
many of them confusing and contradictory, maybe it is time to put all the current data aside and start observing and collecting anew.

To arrive at a more accurate assessment, any subsequent data we now
collect should be based entirely upon the experience itself rather than
trying to reconcile it to one potentially wacky idea or another that
already exists, scientific or otherwise. While we have yet to come up with
any definitive answers, we do find that an acute awareness and observation
of the process of dreaming and having dreams is, in itself, quite
revealing in many ways. It highlights a very specific use and application
of our whole general apparatus of perception, often with direct
implications about the way we use and apply it in our daily waking
awareness too. Apparently, this is because the apparatus we use in
perceiving and modelling both our waking and dream worlds are one and the
same, lucid or otherwise. One appears to be a reflection of the other and vice-versa!

From: The WILD Way To Lucid Dreaming. (2016)

***

iow: if you wanna 'remain' hemmed-in by the (imho currently
erroneous/lacking) interpretations of 'both' that of science 'and'
dild-doing (lucid dreaming per-se having been 'defined' from & by the sleeping-version only...) then that's up to you innit...

personally, and imho + experience, i think we need to see/probe 'beyond'
the current accepted/limiting interpretations and more in the way that
WILDs suggests, at least until 'both' options can then be seen in a
clearer + more accurate light rather than letting everything remain dild-dominated & defined + generally played-down/rubbished by science
anyway as is currently the case...

and am not interested in talking/discussing it outside of this context as
i've just challenged/rubbished 'them' (heh it was one of your main
complaints in your review that i was disregarding so-called established facts... well that's right, and that's because WILDs suggests 'other' alternatives that haven't, so far, even been considered + am determined
that they should/will be...)

and that's my as-objective as-possible pov :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

WILD hasn't been ignored in the lab. It's been included in some studies.
There just has not been any study ever showing it's more effective than
other methods of LD.

Future pursuit of WILD is fine; I'm not against it. But right now
it's a few well-conducted scientific studies vs. your opinion. Again.

I bet even you can see which of those positions is most credible.
If you want to establish WILD widely, you'll have to prove it is
actually a superior method. A few strange dudes on the net making
'claims' about it doesn't cut it.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

If you want to establish WILD widely, you'll have to prove it is
actually a superior method. A few strange dudes on the net making
'claims' about it doesn't cut it.

### - as does neither a few 'equally' strange dudes claiming it doesn't
when so many are having success with it; not all of them strange...

in fact it's the 'strange' ones that appear to exhibit the most difficulty
with it :)

(i see you're going anti-WILDs on fb now too? lol...)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title. :)

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 2:55:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title. :)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

I'm a lover of both the arts and the sciences. Always have been.

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR 'yourself' and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't actually
'you yourself' that's doing it!

That's my own *preference* as well. But the claim that it's "bad"
for anyone to rely on any 3rd party assistance is suspect at best
and maybe even offensive. For some people it might turn out to be
the best or even the only realistic way to go. Some people actually
need to walk on crutches or live in wheelchairs, etc. - you know?

So it's really just another bad argument all the way around.
And why does he keep walking around and around in a circle? :)

seems pretty simple + clear to me :)

My position is far simpler.
Each to his own, and objectively the best well-conducted study wins.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title. :)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR 'yourself'
and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't actually
'you yourself' that's doing it!

seems pretty simple + clear to me :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.org

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:09:33 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 2:55:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title. :)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

I'm a lover of both the arts and the sciences. Always have been.

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR
'yourself'
and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't actually
'you yourself' that's doing it!

That's my own *preference* as well. But the claim that it's "bad"
for anyone to rely on any 3rd party assistance is suspect at best
and maybe even offensive.

### - if you mean controversial, then yes i agree + people often get pissy
when challenged

i like controversial :)

controversial = interesting/stimulating...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:18:53 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:09:33 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 2:55:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title. :)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

I'm a lover of both the arts and the sciences. Always have been.

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR
'yourself'
and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't actually
'you yourself' that's doing it!

That's my own *preference* as well. But the claim that it's "bad"
for anyone to rely on any 3rd party assistance is suspect at best
and maybe even offensive.

### - if you mean controversial, then yes i agree + people often get pissy when challenged

You sure as hell do. :) You guys even start gaslighting people. LOL.
Actually, I don't even have to get "controversial"; just starting to
use logic and evidence will do it with the likes of you.

Just so you don't go away with nothing today except your egomaniacal
flame war (in response to those simple comments about EVIDENCE and
how super-easy "each to his own" really is) here's a little somethin'
for your "metaphors" collection:

https://qwest.tv/magazine/music-genre/jazz-en/2018/the-lost-mingus-tapes/

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:39:07 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:18:53 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:09:33 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan
<jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 2:55:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title.

:)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

I'm a lover of both the arts and the sciences. Always have been.

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR
'yourself'
and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't

actually

'you yourself' that's doing it!

That's my own *preference* as well. But the claim that it's "bad"
for anyone to rely on any 3rd party assistance is suspect at best
and maybe even offensive.

### - if you mean controversial, then yes i agree + people often get
pissy
when challenged

You sure as hell do. :) You guys even start gaslighting people. LOL.

### - pot-kettle black lol :)

Actually, I don't even have to get "controversial"; just starting to
use logic and evidence will do it with the likes of you.

### - ordinary average mortals just wanna fit-in, they don't wanna be controversial nor risk attracting attention by standing out, they leave
all that to the foremost thinkers & philosophers

Just so you don't go away with nothing today except your egomaniacal
flame war (in response to those simple comments about EVIDENCE and
how super-easy "each to his own" really is) here's a little somethin'
for your "metaphors" collection:

https://qwest.tv/magazine/music-genre/jazz-en/2018/the-lost-mingus-tapes/

### - so is that like an olive-branch or something?

i can do olive branches :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Tuesday, September 4, 2018 at 5:59:40 AM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:39:07 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:18:53 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2018 23:09:33 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan
<jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 2:55:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

Not at all. I went pro-science on it. Obviously. See thread title.

:)

### - can't think beyond science/rationalisation huh?

no metaphors in your vocabulary?

I'm a lover of both the arts and the sciences. Always have been.

his 'point' being entirely about doing something 'yourself' FOR
'yourself'
and 'not' relying on any 3-rd party assistance, else it isn't

actually

'you yourself' that's doing it!

That's my own *preference* as well. But the claim that it's "bad"
for anyone to rely on any 3rd party assistance is suspect at best
and maybe even offensive.

### - if you mean controversial, then yes i agree + people often get
pissy
when challenged

You sure as hell do. :) You guys even start gaslighting people. LOL.

### - pot-kettle black lol :)

Chris correctly cautioned not to have anything to do with
gaslighting assholes. He just failed to see that this behavior
applied even more to every other asshole here, including himself.
But that's often how things go on the net. C'est la vie.

Actually, I don't even have to get "controversial"; just starting to
use logic and evidence will do it with the likes of you.

### - ordinary average mortals just wanna fit-in, they don't wanna be controversial nor risk attracting attention by standing out, they leave
all that to the foremost thinkers & philosophers

Humbly calling yourself a foremost thinker and philosopher. LOL.
When truly, if a discussion even begins to require serious thought
or gets genuinely philosophical you immediately *deflect*.
I've never been sure if you're just incapable of going further
or if you just deeply fear how it would go if you continued.
In either case, that knee-jerk habit is steering you 'correctly'
if all you ever want to do is hold on to your beliefs. :)

Trump btw, definitely HAS that deep fear. He's perpetually terrified,
albeit largely unconsciously, that the truth would destroy him.
And it totally would too.

On Facebook, recently Brian posted a YouTube of some loopy dude
ranting about "flexing" the dreaming "gland" in his forehead.
He kept walking around in circles emphatically spewing this shit,
and wait for it... advertising Brian's WILD site.

But darn, someone got embarrassed and took the ridiculous video down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILYLRKx9ZlA&feature=youtu.be

Too bad. Sure wish I had a copy of that. :)

Just so you don't go away with nothing today except your egomaniacal
flame war (in response to those simple comments about EVIDENCE and
how super-easy "each to his own" really is) here's a little somethin'
for your "metaphors" collection:

https://qwest.tv/magazine/music-genre/jazz-en/2018/the-lost-mingus-tapes/

### - so is that like an olive-branch or something?

No. It was just so you don't go away with nothing - as I said.

i can do olive branches :)

URAKA!

(Yet another thing that astonishingly Carlos had right.)

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

"Dr. Gerhard Blumenfinkel was a character in the theatre of infinity
who wanted to help people but realized that... he hated people.
He wanted to heal people but realized that... he hated to have
to touch people to do that. The Dr. cogitated and cogitated the
value of all human life and his own path in life, and at the end
of his magnificent cogitations he came to the formulaic incantation
"URAKA!" which was the summation of his thinking process.

It means: "This is shit!"

I chose the id in the spirit of self-deprecation and double entendre,
for almost everything on ADC truly IS shit, and I truly was Dr.
Blumenfinkel."

***

The 'prophecy' has been more than fulfilled.

URAKA!

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

### - oh and this time it's gonna be in HD too! LOL :)

(small uploading error he made the first time apparently...)

and yes, he does mention my site (which was a surprise) but that's not why
i liked it?

rather, i liked his impassioned plea for peeps to WTF UP!

plus enjoyed his 'metaphor' (yes jeremy it's only a metaphor lol, so stop getting excited) re some 'gland' (or muscle then) in people's heads
they'll 'not' be exercising by depending on 3rd-party assists... he's completely correct!

and so, have persuaded him to put it back up and let the PUBLIC decide +
JUDGE its artistic qualities & content, not some mealy-mouthed ARSEHOLE
who probably prefers dilds anyway hah!

so fuck off! :D

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

so fuck off! :D

lol! you should say "so fuck off faggot"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On Tue, 04 Sep 2018 18:34:39 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

On Facebook, recently Brian posted a YouTube of some loopy dude
ranting about "flexing" the dreaming "gland" in his forehead.

He kept walking around in circles emphatically spewing this shit,
and wait for it... advertising Brian's WILD site.

But darn, someone got embarrassed and took the ridiculous video down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILYLRKx9ZlA&feature=youtu.be
Too bad. Sure wish I had a copy of that.

### - looks like you gonna get your wish LOL 'coz have just persuaded him
to put it back up!

hahaha :)

apparently, some 'asshole' had complained that he found it 'too emotional'
for HIS liking and wanted it removed????? and had beaten on the dude so as
to emotionally disturb him!

(wasn't you was it jeremy? i wouldn't be at all surprised hah...)

anyway, have fixed all that now (and him too lol with banaids aplenty) and
he's re-uploading it as i write! :)

apparently he's the sensitive/artist type, and waaaay too easily
influenced by ARSEHOLES!

did ya get that jeremy? - ARSEHOLES!!!

plus will post the link for you to "make a copy" of when it's done
hehehe...

(am sooo GLAD/HAPPY you don't peronally like it? 'coz in my book that
means it's a success!)

:)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

### - if i finds out that it WAS jeremy who bashed-up an artist-friend of mine (after all this shit he's now a friend...) am gonna wring his feckin' neck!

hah! :)

i recommend you boycott all his shit here and ignore him forevermore.
that will get his attention.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.org

so fuck off! :D

lol! you should say "so fuck off faggot"

### - if i finds out that it WAS jeremy who bashed-up an artist-friend of
mine (after all this shit he's now a friend...) am gonna wring his feckin' neck!

hah! :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

i mean, jeremy's raised some good points before! things other people
'will' think of & ask too, albeit perhaps not quite so provocatively heh,
but have had plenty of those too!

well that's a fair accessment of the situation.
However, you don't need arrogant son of a bitch
trying to ALWAYS run the table on you and others.
There just is NO need for that horseshit here.
The guy is mentally ill or he thinks he is in the
Fight Club movie or something. In person this guy
is as meek as they come. So this bullshit show of
him being senor superior just doesn't hold water.
This guy does not have the courage to talk to people
like he is darth wayne in person. So he's not going to get away with
some false horseshit online here. Not here buddy.

so convinced they're 'right' that
they're completely arrogant & condescending, and/or quickly become so when refuted/challenged, jeez i've spoken to some real horrors via fb and other places like that hehehe, ghastly people! (shudders...) and there's just no getting through to 'em! and well, ok then, maybe they'll change their
minds (or at least become a little more open minded) when everyone else is getting into it and also saying it's good... they'll be last-in, but so
what as long as they eventually come-around to being a little more
reasonable huh...

and because after all... it's not just for a select few, it's for everyone!

some are just more screwed up than others is all, it's just harder for some...

(they're actually the one's who need the most help! and thus reveal themselves as being such...)

strange how 'outsiders' arrange their view(s) the world innit ;)

"actively herd them around..." ?

or summat haha...

well you do what you like. to me i just don't hold or take a position
about any of this. To agree or disagree or to come to some precious
conclusion is a waste of time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.org

i recommend you boycott all his shit here and ignore him forevermore.
that will get his attention.

### - oh i can still get some 'good' use out of it no matter what really ;)

and if only as an object lesson to others if nothing else?

i.e., someone/anyone asks the wrong question (or makes some fucked up implication or whatever) is also 'my' opportunity to spell it all out a
little clearer than before rather than maybe making a whole new post about something i might not have even thought of as being a problem anyhoo,
kinda thing...

and it works too! they have to dig to find the 'flaws/holes' (the perhaps weaker/difficult/more-questionable parts) which then gives me the
opportunity to rebuff and make clearer + only punishing them in the
process if they were being an asshole about it heh, else they get a more 'reasonable' reply every time ;)

everything's an opportunity in that sense if you're looking for
opportunities, and they often provide them without me having to wrack my
brains beforehand...

i mean, jeremy's raised some good points before! things other people
'will' think of & ask too, albeit perhaps not quite so provocatively heh,
but have had plenty of those too! so convinced they're 'right' that
they're completely arrogant & condescending, and/or quickly become so when refuted/challenged, jeez i've spoken to some real horrors via fb and other places like that hehehe, ghastly people! (shudders...) and there's just no getting through to 'em! and well, ok then, maybe they'll change their
minds (or at least become a little more open minded) when everyone else is getting into it and also saying it's good... they'll be last-in, but so
what as long as they eventually come-around to being a little more
reasonable huh...

and because after all... it's not just for a select few, it's for everyone!

some are just more screwed up than others is all, it's just harder for
some...

(they're actually the one's who need the most help! and thus reveal
themselves as being such...)

strange how 'outsiders' arrange their view(s) the world innit ;)

"actively herd them around..." ?

or summat haha...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

### - and hereeeeee's jonny! :D (charlie actually...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jORe7lOg8J0

i like it! it's fresh!

and he's a character too :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

well you do what you like. to me i just don't hold or take a position
about any of this. To agree or disagree or to come to some precious conclusion is a waste of time.

### - well that's fair enough; you don't have to! no obligation whatsoever!

(just say 3 hail mary's my son and you'll be a-ok in no time hahaha...) ;)

it's only idiots like moi with probably nothing better to do, and that
thinks he's gots summat to say that puts up with all that heh... is just
my way i suppose, and then i go's and sticks WILDs out there 'knowing'
they's prolly only gonna chop my bleedin' head-off (with a chainsaw lol) anyway?? (lol i must have been mad!)

how to deal with all this! get it all ready first and 'then' decide' he'd reckoned?

my finger long-hovering over that 'publish' button i can tell ya! LOL
(true!)

should i? shouldn't i?? you know what's likely gonna happen if ya do!

publish and be... damned??

eeek! (the old arsehole started going in & out at that point lol - pffffft/squeek!) :D

oh bollocks! publish AND be damned IF that's what happens!? (and 'coz
there's a very good chance it'll all fall flat/come to nada anyway...
they're not ready for this! maybe in 50 years...)

jeremy's gonna give ya shit for this innit!

jeremy gives me shit about everything anyway, so so-what...

what, and you're gonna go on facebook and 'expose' yourself that way as
well??

you who always stays in the shadows???

are ya really sure about all this pal????? (sudden images of galileo being suspended for weeks at a time by his balls hahaha...)

nope... not at all as it goes... but...

and then he only went and punched the fucking 'publish' button didn't he
LOL :)))

eeeeeeeeeeeeek... w h a t - h a v e - y o u... done now!

shit, is that the devil i see standing there rubbing his hands already???

ohhhhhh shit...

omg ya dun it now!!!

(resists the comical temptation to run and quickly go-peep out the window
to see if anything's happening yet lol...)

ohhhh shit!!!

next scene + several rapid joints later is... oh well, let's see what, if anything, happens eh?

go and announce the fucker??

better get ready for shit heh...

waders on, brolly... up! that's the way :)

and it's been a bit of a roller-coaster ride ever since really heh...

plus too late to get-off the train now! so we'll just have to see where
it's going :)

(it's already gone farther than i thought it ever would in my lifetime;
218 copies sold, at least that many given away as well, 563 members in the WILDs group, and with WILDs now being discussed (not necessarily mine) in almost every fb dreaming group on there! there's been some blinding
reviews plus it'll either stand the test of time or it wont innit! 10
years from now everyone might be WILDing instead of dilding, or even doin' both! who knows!)

i maybe hope... but i don't know...

we'll see! :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 1:38:30 PM UTC-7, alreadygone wrote:

i recommend you boycott all his shit here and ignore him forevermore.
that will get his attention.

9. They try to align people against you.
http://tinyurl.com/ybjfcp5c

:)

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 4:39:55 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

### - and hereeeeee's jonny! :D (charlie actually...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jORe7lOg8J0

i like it! it's fresh!

and he's a character too :)

not bad. anyway you can jump-start a lucid dream
whether it be wild or dild is alright. go your own
way, let it happen naturally. and it will.
that's all i got. mic drop. :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

9. They try to align people against you.

how about some wine with that cheese baby huey ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 2:29:38 PM UTC-7, alreadygone wrote:

The guy is mentally ill...

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

http://tinyurl.com/ybjfcp5c

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

what you're an alcoholic instead?
was i wrong? you have a fucking screw loose capitan.
more whine w/ that cheese baboso boy?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jORe7lOg8J0

i like it! it's fresh!

and he's a character too :)

not bad. anyway you can jump-start a lucid dream
whether it be wild or dild is alright. go your own
way, let it happen naturally. and it will.
that's all i got. mic drop. :)

### - it's not THAT bad is it heh + certainly didn't deserve to get mugged
for it did he :)

anyway, have just shared it to 37 dreaming groups on fb LOL :)))

it's now everywhere!!!!! :D

nice of him to gimmie a plug too though eh?

seems to have been rather inspired by it to have come up with all that
ad-hoc on his own innit...

i reckon the dude should be in show business or on the telly heh! :)

they gets inspired see? but not all of 'em start shouting their heads off
about lucid dreaming (or trump heh) or whatever, that's just some people's character! haha :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On Thu, 06 Sep 2018 01:52:20 +0100, Jeremy H. Donovan <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris - really, really, really gone? - wrote:

This message has been deleted.
3 messages have been deleted.
This message has been deleted. etc. etc. etc.

Covering your tracks to avoid being held accountable
for anything you said. But I'm okay with that. :)

### - can't believe just how petty you're becoming jeremy?

and you're obviously 'not' ok!

you gots a very mean spiteful streak innit tho'...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Just 3 appropriate quotes. Didn't even retaliate. :)

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Chris - really, really, really gone? - wrote:

This message has been deleted.
3 messages have been deleted.
This message has been deleted. etc. etc. etc.

Covering your tracks to avoid being held accountable
for anything you said. But I'm okay with that. :)

"Recognize there will never be accountability
The person...will never be able to see your point of view
or take responsibility for their actions."

http://tinyurl.com/h7d6ypa

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

Just 3 appropriate quotes. Didn't even retaliate. :)

### - but you're needling him in a way you think will upset him?

so it's not 'just' anything; it's a deliberate attempt to be quite horrible

and you seem to be enjoying it??

poking & poking & poking + if that's not gaslighting then i dunno what is?

besides, isn't the world horrible enough for you without adding to it unnecessarily?

i mean, you wouldn't go and vote for someone like trump just outta spite,
would you?

'coz that's the world you're actually voting for via such behavior ya
know...

(lol you'd have never have survived in south africa innit haha...)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)